Curse

actionjack · Apr 07, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

This is an idea that I have for some time now. It falls into the category of adding more randomness, and making exploration area more explore-able.

I will call it “Wonder Cave” system for better reference. What it is, is that in your exploration, you will come across those “entrances”, where when you enter, it will take you to a special cave/dungeon (a small size exploration area). Since they are independent of the map, it allow space for more refine scripting for those caves, which will ensure more surprise and more fun.

Now for the details. (not necessary to read)

Appearance: The Wonder Cave will appear semi-randomly in the exploration maps. Somewhat like the chest or the bosses, there will be pre-determine locations where those caves “might” appear. However, it will be determine by chance of when and where they will appear.

I will do an example. Say there is a pre-determine cave entrance location in the Troll cave, as well as 5 other such possible location in that map. Set the wonder cave appearance rate for that map to be about 20%. Given so, there will be 4% chance where you will find such cave in the Troll Cave. But of course, the more you explore, the higher chance you will find such cave. (it’s a protection against people who would just run and farm such cave) What kind of cave you will get is random too.

Entrance: The entrance would look like a door way or a cave opening or a stair way leading down. There will also be the swirling while aura like the entrance/exit to maps. It will also have name to what kind of cave it is.

Entrance Key and Map: It is not as simple as finding the entrance to enter the cave. You can enter such cave only if you have the key. When an entrance is spawn, it will also spawn a set of guardians. (group or/and boss mobs) Defeating them will yield you a Entrance Key (each key will be specific to only its corresponding cave?) Also as one of the drop by mobs, you can find a Cave Map. Cave Map will work so, where it will have an exploration area’s name. When you enter that area, and use the map, it will tell you the location of its cave, as well as spawn it in. The Map is a one time use. (so if I have a map name “Poison Cave – Salted Flat”. When I go to Salted Flat, and use the map, it will show the location of the cave on that map, and if I go to it, I will have a 100% chance of finding a Poison Cave there. Killing the guardian mobs, and I will get a Poison Cave Key that I can use to enter the Poison Cave)

This is design so that should you not ready to enter such cave on first encounter, you can have a way to come back to it when you are ready, or get the group you want. You can also sell or trade those items (the key and map) to other player should you want to.

Wonder Cave- Type of Cave: As already said, since they are not part of the map, you can put more freedom to what kind of things can go in there. This allow for better scripting events, special conditions, better coordinating AI for the mob, or just random stuff. The area of the cave should not be too big.

Some ideas might include:

Poison Cave: Every creature in it will be poison.
Bug Cave: You will be attack by hordes of low level scrubs, as well as a queen.
Dragon Cave: A big high level dragon await you inside.
Death Cave: Lots Undead. Also can not be rez.
Tipple Chest Cave: Will find 3 chest in the room. One will contain the treasure, open the other two, and you will be attack.
Gold Cave: lots gold coins on the floor, but you only have few seconds to get as much as you can before get kick out.

and more…

For loots or rewards, it would have to depend on what kind of cave. Some give out better than other, but some are also more difficult. (if there is a added player Stats window, it would be nice to also include a badge for each different kind of cave you completed before)

Keep in mind that this is not really for any farming purpose, but just ways to make the game more fresh and more fun in exploration.

Juk3n · Apr 07, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

I think it this idea is fantastic, and also not that hard to work in to the story of the game since there is already a rift in dimension - hence we have uw2 in tombs and such. The rifts could simply have spread to other areas of the land of Tyria/Cantha.. It would take a long time for A-Net to design, test, and implement but would add somthing very new and original to an already great game.

Uber tough boss encounters in the caves ftw! MAYBE Glint Tough boss battles 1 for every cave that would add somthing to the game indeed.

Good idea dude.!

bushe · Apr 07, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I really like this idea. I would really like to see more random/unscripted monster groupings so that one couldn't prepare a cookie cutter build that is designed perfectly to kill such and such mob on such and such map. Like when you first played through the game and had no idea what kinds of monsters you would face in the frozen forest or north kryta. I think it would add excitement if you didn't know whether it was casters or melee heavy and so on.

actionjack · Apr 07, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

WEll.. glade some people like it and got a replies (my last few post go no replies unless I self bump...

)

Hope people will think about the potential of such wonder cave, and what you can put in there.

Traps ("Don't step on the Red stone!")
Riddles and puzzles ("Turn the dial of sun to face the moon")
Better Scripped AIs ("More team works, like a alll Traper group")
Boss and Superboss (" Its Tripple Glint!")
Set conditions ("Everyone is BLEEDING!")
Timed or Trigger Events ("The Cave is collepsing, get out in 10 seconds!")
Lores, NPC, and story involvement ("hints of Gwen was in this cave before?!?)
Mini Game ("Kill atleast 20 Trolls in 2 min to get the treasure")

That, and much more.

Make the game more fun, and not the standard "see mob group, kill, go on".
And more excitment in exploration, as you will never know what is around the corner.

actionjack · Sep 18, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Giving this a little bump.

The map/key for opening dungeon feel like need a bit of rework, but I think the procedure of getting the dungeon would still follow in a similar line

1) Get the Dungeon Access
(there can be several possible way for it, such as talke to or pay an NPC, or still have the map/key as a drop, or just have dungeon randomize instantize, etc)

2) Form a group
(done mainly in town, much like any quest)

3) Go to the dungeon
(can have the dungeon spawn (when have it "selected" like a quest) in semi-random exploration area. The Dungeon area should not be part of the exploration area, but only have an entrace (somewhat like FOW or Furance) The process could also be simplfied more and just have instant travel/entrance.

4) Explore and Finish the Dungeon
(differnt goals for differnt dungeon)

----------------------
The base idea for it still is the same, as a repeatible quest attenable by exploration (to encourage exploration), which offer more scripted content and brief game play for more freshing and adventurous fun.

And here is link of another thread that offer some playing-example of how such thing "might" work.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...54#post1265754
-------------------

Modual Gaming is the way to go for future GW

Addone_Abaddon · Sep 18, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

/signed

sadly, I don't think Anet will read this, and therefore impliment it

BahamutKaiser · Sep 18, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Why is a wonder cave a dungeon? Will there be prisoners?, is it in a castle?

How is it a dungeon if no one is imprisoned?

Caves are nice.... and we have some, castles are better and we don't have those, as far as scenery goes, I would like to see more castles and fort, maybe even with a secret dungeon. Wonderful, really.

Randomly available locations....... I don't know about that, maybe it's good.

actionjack · Sep 18, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I am using the term dungeon as a typical RP term, which more describle an area of maze like passage and rooms, and more "scripted" monsters and traps and tricks and NPC and events (like there is a Dungeon Master in control). In this term, it apply not only to a basement like dungeon cell for holding prisioner or for SM pleasures, but rather can apply to all various type of themes and locations, typically castles, ruins, caves, mines, tower, maze, tomb, etc.

I call it wonder cave because it somewhat remind me of the cave of wonder in the Aladin, where it such entrace would "randomly appear" (or by some sort of conditions, like at full moon or such), as oppose to "always" be there.

Addone_Abaddon · Sep 18, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

a dungeon in a game originated from dungeons and dragons... bla bla. a dungeon on gw and modern role-playing games is an unmarked area with a seperate map, normally with a set of objectives.

Scavenger Rage · Sep 18, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

/signed

Something I have been always wanting on GW was underground scenarios (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10046847) where you could enter in small groups (hell, 12 people wouldn’t fit in a small narrow corridor ^^) and explore it after some kind of goal.

The way I see:

1. Random caves appearing on far explorable areas (Ice Flow or Mineral Springs or so).

2. The boss + key thing is nice. The map one is not. One nice thing about these underground areas would be randomness. So, a battle fog would be pretty much a requirement. I mean, you wouldn’t know how it is like until you explore it and the map opens for you. Also, these should not be tradable. You find a cave, you fight the mobs guarding the entrance, you kill them and you get access to the cave, that’s it. If you leave the area and re-enter you would have to do everything again.

3. There’s is not much need of a complex system. Maybe an one hour or 30 minutes area where you had 1 or 2 levels liked by an elevator or such, some mobs and maybe some bosses to fight. They would be filled with traps, closed doors (witch you would have to find specific keys inside the place to open) and stuff like that. I imagine bandits hideouts and stuff like that. Also 2 things, one is that they wouldn´t have REZ SHRINES, so IF you die, thats it. Either some one rez you or you fail the area. And two, once inside, you would´t be able to get out to the area you was, the only way is loosing or teleporting back to a city.

Its not a new concept in its major part. ALL the isometric RPGs have them, specially one called "SACRED", and others such as Diablo 2 (where the caves are actually random, the program generates a random pattern of walls, traps and mobs each time you access one of them). This is not quite possible in other MMORPGs, but the stanced model of Guild Wars make it SOOOO much easier for the programmers I still don’t know why we don’t have it!

And also, the board ones are all about that! Tell me about Hero Quest, D&D or ANY other classis board RPG

You would actually decide where the doors where, where the traps where supposed to be, and what kind of enemies you would face.

4. The way I am thinking now there would have to be some sort of arrangement. Like that: if you find one of those on the desert, they are dune burrowers lairs. On the ice, dwarf mines. Near LA, could even be White Mantles hideouts, same for factions, we could have Am Fahran (I think I got the spelling wrong with their name ^^) hide-outs. On the forest, spider caves, and so on... Still, the kind of mobs you would face would vary from a diversity of mobs within the theme, like casters, warriors and so on, maintaining the surprise aspect. Also they would have a chests whitch only open whith keys found inside each respective area, and those disapear if you don´t use them until the end of dungeon iteself (I am 90% sure this can be done whith some coding), this way people wouldn´t be able to go inside whith like 198409284092384 keys ready to open the chests. NO chest runs please

5. AAAAAAAAAA!!!! Please IMPLEMENT IT!!! I would probably die of starvation if they implemented something like that (I would play 24/7 ^^) but still, it would make the replay value SOOOOO MUCHHHHHHH higher, the game itself would be a LOT better just cause of this.

6 Let´s go insane for a second. There could even be (in a future chapter) a new class expecialized in seeing / defusing traps and doing some other "expertise" stuff. Maybe some one called Thief, whitch would be some sort of sin+ranger class that would be abble to create complex traps and be able to see and defuse traps from other classes. Also he would have abbilities to crack gates open (possibly the guild thief would be banned from the GvGs but whathever) and some stealth skills like becoming invisible while not atacking or something like that (I will think a bit further this class and write a complete concept of it whith some skills latter today).

Latter.

The truth itself · Sep 18, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

What an innovative idea.

/signed.

legion_rat · Sep 18, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

/signed X10
I like this idea. It would make some build useless as all hell and make people have to build better.

Anet!!! make it so!

~the D&D rat~

Trvth Jvstice · Sep 18, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Great idea Actionjack. Having random cave spawns would give the game more of an exploration and discovery type feeling.

About the cave design, I know some games have dungeons that are random in design or layout, so that everytime you went in it was a different experience. I think that would work great with your idea, although the map part might not work since everytime you entered, the dungeon would generate a random layout.

again, awesome idea.

EDIT: I see Scavenger posted the randomly generated cave idea while I was typing. lol

actionjack · Sep 18, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Thxs for the positive approvals, y'all.

-I like the idea of Randomize Generated Dungeons. I would want to see a randomize dungeon map/area/zone too. While in the OP I did not suggest that such dungeon be randomize genrated (just randomly located), few of such dungeon could certainly be random. But more of what I have in mind are the more scripted type (with more touch of a "dungeon master"), where it would have more story/scripted events/NPC/monster, etc that make everything come togeter more as one. (but could work as both/both)

-On the issue of key/map. I am not fully sold on it too, and few other have their own thoughts about it, but I want some what where you don't necessary have to go into that dungeon you found straight from exploration, as you might not be ready. with the map/key, you could return town, get buddy or other to join, adjust your skills, take a rest, sell you stuff... etc, before going into the dungeon space, which would reserve for you (that you don't need to "find" it again)

- I put an example of such playing experience in my Journal into new land 2.... maybe I (or other) can try more on writing some more ideas for such cave/dungeon area. (Like a Spider Cave, with a Sticky enviromental effect ath make you move and attack slower, lots posionous spiders, a secret friendly spider that you can charm, and a Queen Spider name "Charlotte" that spawn more little spider and write words with her web)

-Oh, and it has a strange thead title (the not save the game part) because it was orignally posted few thread after one call (idea that will save the game). I was thinking of changing it, but decided not to....

Scavenger Rage · Sep 18, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

The points of dungeons and such are UNEXPLORED territory, you spot it whithout warning and get inside without knowing what you will face.

That’s why I think randomized them all is the most appropriate solution, and easier as well, since they don’t have to spend time creating plots (and leave this for new chapters and all) and concentrate in a new game play experience.

AAAAAAAA!!! I am drowning all over my keyboard now just imagining the possibilities.... "I am walking haply trough Ice Floe when all of the sudden I spot a cave entrance guarded by 4 white mantles.... I think WTF they doing here?! When I get inside I spot a lot of people entrapped there just to find out that was a hidden white mantle outpost they used as a prison! Wandering on the several cells I find some people to help me, but first I got to get the key from the key guardian... The problem is that not every single one of them are friends, and amongst one of the prisoners, one of them betray me and right when I free him he starts attacking my party…" and it goes on...

Latter.

PS: DAMM!!! I am drowning again! O_o

actionjack · Sep 19, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scavenger Rage

The points of dungeons and such are UNEXPLORED territory, you spot it whithout warning and get inside without knowing what you will face.

That’s why I think randomized them all is the most appropriate solution, and easier as well, since they don’t have to spend time creating plots (and leave this for new chapters and all) and concentrate in a new game play experience.

AAAAAAAA!!! I am drowning all over my keyboard now just imagining the possibilities.... "I am walking haply trough Ice Floe when all of the sudden I spot a cave entrance guarded by 4 white mantles.... I think WTF they doing here?! When I get inside I spot a lot of people entrapped there just to find out that was a hidden white mantle outpost they used as a prison! Wandering on the several cells I find some people to help me, but first I got to get the key from the key guardian... The problem is that not every single one of them are friends, and amongst one of the prisoners, one of them betray me and right when I free him he starts attacking my party…" and it goes on...

Latter.

PS: DAMM!!! I am drowning again! O_o

That is why I say both/both.

As in you example, it is less of a random dungeon, but require a more scripted action and map creature, which result in better RP experence and more interesting playing experience. But that is not too say a randomize generated dungeon is bad too.

So on exploring, you could come accross two type of dungeon.. one would be a more generic name dungeon (Icy Cave, Dark Hole, Web Hive, Evil Camp, Undead Graveyard, etc), which would have the randomly generated rooms and hall way under a pre-dertermin forumula/coding instruction. Another time, you might come across a a "named" dungeon ("Web Hive of Spider Queen", "Tourtuing Chamber of Alacard", etc), which offer more "set" game.

But I would still want to allow ways for player to return to town and come back to it later.

Addone_Abaddon · Sep 19, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

^double post

Bump, wanna keep this going so Anet notice it.

Scavenger Rage · Sep 19, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Ok...here are some more ideas I got last night:

1. All the caves should be lvl20 mobs inside, even the ones near ascalon and such. This would create multiple party sizes dungeons, some for 4 person, some for 8 and so on. Not that the 4 ones are easier, they are just made for a 4 people size (I for instance like the idea of going underground with the fewer people possible... going down there with an entire army takes out all the "creepy" atmosphere

2. There should be multiple / simultaneous goals, an example: There is a door somewhere in the dungeon that requires 2 levelers to be pressed simultaneous in order to open it. SO you will need 2 people each one going in opposite directions each one standing on one leveler while a third one stays near the door to actually get inside when it opens. Some other stuff as collapses or entrapment traps...like you are walking and suddenly a door closes and blocks half of the party back on the other room. You actually got to find the switch on your own so you party can proceed OR you simply got to keep moving and the rest of the group will have to find an alternate way for proceeding, and such things that involves separating the party so the players have to survive on their own.

3. Light system. I am not particular sure that GW have the ability to control that, BUT I am confident the developers can work around the possible limitations quite easily (one day I even thought it was IMPOSSIBLE to implement facial expressions you know

haply I was proven wrong!). I am not after real - time shadows or anything like that, all I want is that in some places one person of the party got to actually carry a torch, otherwise the place will be in complete darkness and you won’t be able to see right. Make some caves REALY dark and give the option to illuminate the path you know

That is it for now....ALSO about bumping the topic, do not worry. I will keep bumping it with fresh ideas every 24hs or so until I see this implemented ^^ I still got some ideas in my head that I am saving for latter posts...I even got back playing NOX so I can get some inspiration

And for the people that like the idea of dungeons but still haven’t posted here, please be my guest. The more people they know endorse this the faster they will work to implement it!

Latter.

Addone_Abaddon · Sep 19, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

/signed on that lol.. anything for dungeon!

Scavenger Rage · Sep 19, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Just a little PLUS I thought just now:

- "Why Anet should implement it?". There are THOUSANDS of reasons for this, but I found one more pretty valid argument. IF they make this places requiring multiple persons to be completed, IT would actualy means that going in there whith henchs is near impossible (much like the Orozar quest on Sorrows Furnace where you have to split the team up) and this way it would actualy solve one deficiency of GW, people that like to go trought the game whith nothing but henchs. Not that it got impossible for them to get trought areas whith henchs, BUT it would actualy mean a LOT more people spending some time gathering a HUMAN party to do the areas just because they MIGHT find a cave and want to explore it whith the party. This would result in a MAJOR boost on the social interaction whith strangers on the game and meeting new people is always good, specialy for Guild Wars

Also it would adress the one particular issue that has been arround for some time of unexperienced people that simply gave up of finding party for quests, resulting on the other people that actualy like to play whith humans spending 10 000 hours LFG.

Make the dungeons somehow profitable (high rare possibility on them whith exclusive chests/keys that only drops on the cave in question and cannot be stocked once you leave the cave meaning you actualy gotta play trought the cave to get the keys to open the chests everytime... or even some rare skins that only drops inside certain caves) and this will not only adress to the "hench-people", but it will also fix some of the "grind for warfare" issue and it will even help whith the bot problem not making it so profitable!!!!

Another GOOD benefit out of this would to make RUNS less atractive because if you are running an area and spot a RARE cave you can´t go inside

And whith that we would even get less noobs on high end areas!!!

This would even increase the replay value of previus visited / completed areas because even if you have been there before 100 times whith other chars, the possibility to find something entery new is there

If these are not enough reasons think about using some crappy areas of the game for something usefull!!! It would actualy revive some portions of tyria, simple because there are not enough 6 person party or 4 person party on cantha, SO if you wanted to go on a 4 people dungeon you would have to actualy go back do Beetlerun or Sardelac or such cities that are near desert nowadays!!!

Another side note, they HAVE to be 100% random (at least in encounter rate), so you CAN´T travel back to them....the only chance you have to go inside is on the moment you spot it (sorry action, I am gonna be insistent on this ^^)

Ok Anet, no excuses now, start working to make this happen ASAP OK?!

Latter.

***** Actionjack, an IDEA I have for you. Take some time to read the entire thread (its only on page one, you better start doing it before I flood you whith ideas for 20 pages or so ;p) and make a summary of all the ideas been sugested by people on the other replies on the first post, so it is easier for Anet to keep track of changes (they are already doing all the hard work, lets give them some slack), OR give me the permision to do so on my first reply #10 and put something on the title of the post that refere to it, i will most sure acess this topic everytime I can anyway ^^.